Scottish Independence...

[JensenBakura]

...so next week is crunch time. I'm hoping in the no crowd win, mostly because I think it's going to be a massive pain in the rear changing things around to accommodate a split. I'm also a little concerned that it may not be as easy for me to return to Scotland (which has always been my eventual goal) if it becomes a separate country. I'm also really put off by the weird pseudo-fascism that seems to rear it's ugly head whenever nationalism is brought up. I always felt bring a union of different nations helped suppress ethnic and racial bigotry, and factions within the yes crowd have been getting violent recently.

Has it been getting any coverage where you guys are? Do people care?

[badfo]

It gets some coverage here. Just starting to ramp up as it gets closer to the referendum.

As much as the crazy far right nationalism in Europe recently weirds me out (in the same way I imagine people outside the states feel about the Tea Party), It's hard to be against self-determination. And I don't think Scotland's one of those cases where you are just carving up microstates destined to fail. I understand not feeling represented in a government.

So whatever you want, Scotland. We're cool.

[JensenBakura]

It gets some coverage here. Just starting to ramp up as it gets closer to the referendum.

As much as the crazy far right nationalism in Europe recently weirds me out (in the same way I imagine people outside the states feel about the Tea Party), It's hard to be against self-determination. And I don't think Scotland's one of those cases where you are just carving up microstates destined to fail. I understand not feeling represented in a government.

So whatever you want, Scotland. We're cool.

I don't know how much self-determination necessarily applies here - Scots who live outside Scotland don't get to vote on the future of their own country. Then there are the thousands of ethnic Indian/Irish/Chinese/Pakistani/English/Welsh who self-identify as British, but happen to live in Scotland, as a part of the Uk who don't necessarily want to be part of a new nationalistic foreign country that's getting all teary-eyed about medieval history.

I don't know: maybe it's like if you moved from Oklahoma to Alabama and then Alabama broke away and became it's own nation and started romanticising Alabama as a home for the true descendants of the CSA. It might frustrate you a little to have moved around within your country and then suddenly been caught up in this sort of independence movement.

The whole Free Scotland movement started to lose me when they wasted thousands of local council pounds making all the signs in my home town bi-lingual English/Gaelic, even though historically it was Old Scots that was spoken there, not Gaelic. I lived there 20 years and heard Gaelic spoken zero times.

[badfo]

I don't know how much self-determination necessarily applies here - Scots who live outside Scotland don't get to vote on the future of their own country. Then there are the thousands of ethnic Indian/Irish/Chinese/Pakistani/English/Welsh who self-identify as British, but happen to live in Scotland, as a part of the Uk who don't necessarily want to be part of a new nationalistic foreign country that's getting all teary-eyed about medieval history.

I don't know: maybe it's like if you moved from Oklahoma to Alabama and then Alabama broke away and became it's own nation and started romanticising Alabama as a home for the true descendants of the CSA. It might frustrate you a little to have moved around within your country and then suddenly been caught up in this sort of independence movement.

The whole Free Scotland movement started to lose me when they wasted thousands of local council pounds making all the signs in my home town bi-lingual English/Gaelic, even though historically it was Old Scots that was spoken there, not Gaelic. I lived there 20 years and heard Gaelic spoken zero times.

It's self-determination, it's just the parameters aren't to your liking, right? It's residents of Scotland voting and not ethnic Scots.

If you live there and are allowed to vote, I don't see why your ethnicity should matter. I suppose, as you put it, there are some chasing centuries-old history, but aren't there concerns more rooted in modern times? Scotland's status affects its residents, so I don't really see a problem with anybody of any ethnicity being allowed a say, even if they identify with the broader British term. They reside there and it effects them.

I'm sure you'd like a say though. You're an American citizen, right? It is weird that you have more say in US government than the coming referendum.

Regarding your Alabama example, I can see having questions about it. But some of those questions I think seem more solved in the Scottish case. Wouldn't you likely be granted Scottish citizenship in the case of independence? And from what I've read it seems like almost a foregone conclusion that Scotland would join the UK-Ireland passport whatever thing you guys do. Obviously not all the concerns.

Also I'd never live in Alabama. Even Okies have standards.

[fallenchicken]

God could you imagine living in Alabama. That's disturbing.

[badfo]

I'd rather live in Ohio. It wouldn't be easy and I might sink into an uncontrollable spiral, but it's not Alabama.

[JensenBakura]

I don't know how much self-determination necessarily applies here - Scots who live outside Scotland don't get to vote on the future of their own country. Then there are the thousands of ethnic Indian/Irish/Chinese/Pakistani/English/Welsh who self-identify as British, but happen to live in Scotland, as a part of the Uk who don't necessarily want to be part of a new nationalistic foreign country that's getting all teary-eyed about medieval history.

I don't know: maybe it's like if you moved from Oklahoma to Alabama and then Alabama broke away and became it's own nation and started romanticising Alabama as a home for the true descendants of the CSA. It might frustrate you a little to have moved around within your country and then suddenly been caught up in this sort of independence movement.

The whole Free Scotland movement started to lose me when they wasted thousands of local council pounds making all the signs in my home town bi-lingual English/Gaelic, even though historically it was Old Scots that was spoken there, not Gaelic. I lived there 20 years and heard Gaelic spoken zero times.

It's self-determination, it's just the parameters aren't to your liking, right? It's residents of Scotland voting and not ethnic Scots.

If you live there and are allowed to vote, I don't see why your ethnicity should matter. I suppose, as you put it, there are some chasing centuries-old history, but aren't there concerns more rooted in modern times? Scotland's status affects its residents, so I don't really see a problem with anybody of any ethnicity being allowed a say, even if they identify with the broader British term. They reside there and it effects them.

I'm sure you'd like a say though. You're an American citizen, right? It is weird that you have more say in US government than the coming referendum.

Regarding your Alabama example, I can see having questions about it. But some of those questions I think seem more solved in the Scottish case. Wouldn't you likely be granted Scottish citizenship in the case of independence? And from what I've read it seems like almost a foregone conclusion that Scotland would join the UK-Ireland passport whatever thing you guys do. Obviously not all the concerns.

Also I'd never live in Alabama. Even Okies have standards.

Yes, I am American, yes it is weird having more say in US politics than UK, especially when my only real link to current issues is my conservative evangelical extended family who I almost always disappoint in my voting choices. Back in Scotland, permanent residents can't vote unless they are commonwealth or EU citizens. So my sister who's lived there all her life and owns two small businesses has no say, but her Irish Husband who has been here less than a decade can vote.

As for the passport thing, maybe. Everything is an unknown. The SNP's campaigning has been all anti-England and tub-thumping. Will we get a currency union? No one knows. EU membership? No one knows. How much of the national debt? No one knows. So voting yes is a massive leap in the dark.

As for Scottish citizenship, I would have no claim to it as I'm a PR of the Uk with no perm address in Scotland.

Side note: Has Obamacare helped any of you? If it has I'd be interested - like I said I get a pretty one sided view.

[Pewps]

I don't know how much self-determination necessarily applies here - Scots who live outside Scotland don't get to vote on the future of their own country. Then there are the thousands of ethnic Indian/Irish/Chinese/Pakistani/English/Welsh who self-identify as British, but happen to live in Scotland, as a part of the Uk who don't necessarily want to be part of a new nationalistic foreign country that's getting all teary-eyed about medieval history.

I don't know: maybe it's like if you moved from Oklahoma to Alabama and then Alabama broke away and became it's own nation and started romanticising Alabama as a home for the true descendants of the CSA. It might frustrate you a little to have moved around within your country and then suddenly been caught up in this sort of independence movement.

The whole Free Scotland movement started to lose me when they wasted thousands of local council pounds making all the signs in my home town bi-lingual English/Gaelic, even though historically it was Old Scots that was spoken there, not Gaelic. I lived there 20 years and heard Gaelic spoken zero times.

It's self-determination, it's just the parameters aren't to your liking, right? It's residents of Scotland voting and not ethnic Scots.

If you live there and are allowed to vote, I don't see why your ethnicity should matter. I suppose, as you put it, there are some chasing centuries-old history, but aren't there concerns more rooted in modern times? Scotland's status affects its residents, so I don't really see a problem with anybody of any ethnicity being allowed a say, even if they identify with the broader British term. They reside there and it effects them.

I'm sure you'd like a say though. You're an American citizen, right? It is weird that you have more say in US government than the coming referendum.

Regarding your Alabama example, I can see having questions about it. But some of those questions I think seem more solved in the Scottish case. Wouldn't you likely be granted Scottish citizenship in the case of independence? And from what I've read it seems like almost a foregone conclusion that Scotland would join the UK-Ireland passport whatever thing you guys do. Obviously not all the concerns.

Also I'd never live in Alabama. Even Okies have standards.

Texas probably would've been a more apt analogy, they're always huffing and puffing about breaking away from the Union

[Darth Snuggles]

At the end of the day, it's up to the Scottish people. To paint all people who want Scottish Independence as people yearning for the glory days of the past is a bit unfair. There are plenty of rational and moderate people in Scotland who simply want to be Independent. Given the general sense in Scotland that they tend to get treated poorly (understatement) by the UK Government, I can understand where they are coming from.

There are a lot of things to worry about for sure, but at the end of the day, maybe Scotland needs to finally be self-determining once again. Then at least they can stop sitting around bitching about how bad everything is in their country because of those 'English bastards'. When the responsibility rests solely at their own feet maybe they'll finally be able to move forward. It's not like Ireland disappeared into a gaping black hole of desolation when they gained independence.

Of course my opinion is probably somewhat skewed. I'm still annoyed since the failure of our own referendum for independence in the late 90's, there has been no discussion since, nor likely to be any in the future, of Australia breaking away from the Commonwealth.

Overall though, I wouldn't be surprised if the No camp wins. Fear is a pretty powerful political motivator.

[badfo]

Texas probably would've been a more apt analogy, they're always huffing and puffing about breaking away from the Union

I can smell them from here.

Puerto Rico, too, though more about figuring out whatever they want to do, even if it happens to be statehood.

[JensenBakura]

At the end of the day, it's up to the Scottish people. To paint all people who want Scottish Independence as people yearning for the glory days of the past is a bit unfair. There are plenty of rational and moderate people in Scotland who simply want to be Independent. Given the general sense in Scotland that they tend to get treated poorly (understatement) by the UK Government, I can understand where they are coming from.

There are a lot of things to worry about for sure, but at the end of the day, maybe Scotland needs to finally be self-determining once again. Then at least they can stop sitting around bitching about how bad everything is in their country because of those 'English bastards'. When the responsibility rests solely at their own feet maybe they'll finally be able to move forward. It's not like Ireland disappeared into a gaping black hole of desolation when they gained independence.

Of course my opinion is probably somewhat skewed. I'm still annoyed since the failure of our own referendum for independence in the late 90's, there has been no discussion since, nor likely to be any in the future, of Australia breaking away from the Commonwealth.

Overall though, I wouldn't be surprised if the No camp wins. Fear is a pretty powerful political motivator.

Does being in the commonwealth actually hurt Australia in anyway though? (Honestly curious, I don't know the details) I thought it was just a trade, defense and cultural co-operation agreement?

I'm not saying there are no moderates in the Yes camp. I'm saying the political leaders of the Yes camp have consistently avoided giving hard facts about the cost of independence in favour of rabble-rousing in interviews, debates, question-time, etc. their white papers have been vague and haven't answered the issues people are most concerned about. I wouldn't say there is a "general" sense of mistreatment, I'd say there has always been 20-40% of the population who believe the union has only ever been a bad thing. Since devolution in the 90's we've seen huge investment in Scotland. Aside from the stupid bi-lingual signs, my hometown's local government has been able to build a brand new hospital, a new high school, renovate and reopen the canals for tourists, and totally modernise our village shopping area. So it's not like we're having investment withheld while English towns flourish instead.

I think fear is a valid factor in politics sometimes. I voted against G.W.Bush in '04 because I had a deep sense of fear that invading Iraq was a Pandora's box that would haunt us for a long time. And yes, when I realised the SNP had no firm plan or details once we got independence, I was fearful of what the consequences might be.

[Thaed]

At the end of the day, it's up to the Scottish people. To paint all people who want Scottish Independence as people yearning for the glory days of the past is a bit unfair. There are plenty of rational and moderate people in Scotland who simply want to be Independent. Given the general sense in Scotland that they tend to get treated poorly (understatement) by the UK Government, I can understand where they are coming from.

There are a lot of things to worry about for sure, but at the end of the day, maybe Scotland needs to finally be self-determining once again. Then at least they can stop sitting around bitching about how bad everything is in their country because of those 'English bastards'. When the responsibility rests solely at their own feet maybe they'll finally be able to move forward. It's not like Ireland disappeared into a gaping black hole of desolation when they gained independence.

Of course my opinion is probably somewhat skewed. I'm still annoyed since the failure of our own referendum for independence in the late 90's, there has been no discussion since, nor likely to be any in the future, of Australia breaking away from the Commonwealth.

Overall though, I wouldn't be surprised if the No camp wins. Fear is a pretty powerful political motivator.

Does being in the commonwealth actually hurt Australia in anyway though? (Honestly curious, I don't know the details) I thought it was just a trade, defense and cultural co-operation agreement?

I'm not saying there are no moderates in the Yes camp. I'm saying the political leaders of the Yes camp have consistently avoided giving hard facts about the cost of independence in favour of rabble-rousing in interviews, debates, question-time, etc. their white papers have been vague and haven't answered the issues people are most concerned about. I wouldn't say there is a "general" sense of mistreatment, I'd say there has always been 20-40% of the population who believe the union has only ever been a bad thing. Since devolution in the 90's we've seen huge investment in Scotland. Aside from the stupid bi-lingual signs, my hometown's local government has been able to build a brand new hospital, a new high school, renovate and reopen the canals for tourists, and totally modernise our village shopping area. So it's not like we're having investment withheld while English towns flourish instead.

I think fear is a valid factor in politics sometimes. I voted against G.W.Bush in '04 because I had a deep sense of fear that invading Iraq was a Pandora's box that would haunt us for a long time. And yes, when I realised the SNP had no firm plan or details once we got independence, I was fearful of what the consequences might be.

I've not really read up on the subject, but I've seen comments from people who are pretending to know what they talk about, and the general consensus among them is that Australia becoming a republic wouldn't really change anything beyond our Prime Minister becoming a President and costing a whole lot of money. There are probably some intricacies that I'm not aware of, but this is about as much of the debate as I've seen.

[fallenchicken]

I'm not saying Alabama is hell on earth, but it smells like sulfur. The place is haunted. There's something grotesque, big and evil, hiding beneath the land. You have dreams there. Bad dreams. Suicidal thoughts creep in. You sweat in the shower. You can't stay too long. You'll never leave.

[Darth Snuggles]

I heard an English acquaintance state that he hoped Scotland would remain part of the UK, purely because he feared the loss of all their Labour votes. And he wonders how the Scots might have got this notion that the best way to feel represented is to break away from the UK....

Being part of the Commonwealth causes no direct harm to Australia. Unless you consider paying for a head of state in the role of Governor General and all their support staff harmful. The role is seen as mostly ceremonial these days, especially since the GG is appointed by the Prime Minister and I doubt there is a PM since Whitlam who would make the mistake of appointing a Governor General that wasn't firmly in their political pocket. Because despite being viewed as "ceremonial" the GG does in fact have powers laid out in the Constitution which enable them to appoint and dismiss Ministers, Judges and Ambassadors etc, initiate elections and dissolve the sitting Parliament. All new legislation needs to be approved by the GG. Technically as well they're the commander of our military.

On paper they are essentially the representative of the Monarch in Australia and have all the powers associated with that role. Currently the GG seems content to just be ceremonial and take the money, knighthood and prestige. But it's disconcerting to me personally that by law there is someone with that much power over us LEGALLY. We supposedly live in a democracy, but when our Head of State is appointed by a Prime Minister - and all other Federal appointments are technically made by them - under the advisement of the Prime Minister, it just seems like an environment made for corruption and back scratching.

I gotta stop thinking about this now because the current Government makes me nervous enough as it is.

Essentially the Republic referendum failed in the 90's cause the pro-Republic camp couldn't decide on how the President should be elected.
I doubt we'll ever break away though, because god forbid we lose the opportunity to win all those Gold medals at the Commonwealth Games!

[pano]

we talkin bout tone abet now?

[isgrelindisguise]

Snuggles confirmed as dissident, added to watchlist.

[Darth Snuggles]

we talkin bout tone abet now?

Hahah great pic.

I used to think he was just an ignorant dick. But there's really something kind of sinister about him.

[fallenchicken]

When Scottish declares independence I'm going to be like FREEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM and be really clever but not until then.

[badfo]

Hahah great pic.

I used to think he was just an ignorant dick. But there's really something kind of sinister about him.

It's always fun playing that game. Are they a subnormal dope or a man who can shoot another man in the face and get the victim to apologize?

[Thaed]

Hahah great pic.

I used to think he was just an ignorant dick. But there's really something kind of sinister about him.

It's always fun playing that game. Are they a subnormal dope or a man who can shoot another man in the face and get the victim to apologize?

Sinister dope who could shoot a man in the face and have the majority of Australians believe that the victim deserved it because he's brown.

[Darth Snuggles]

Hahah great pic.

I used to think he was just an ignorant dick. But there's really something kind of sinister about him.

It's always fun playing that game. Are they a subnormal dope or a man who can shoot another man in the face and get the victim to apologize?

Sinister dope who could shoot a man in the face and have the majority of Australians believe that the victim deserved it because he's brown.

Whoa, bit unfair there Thaed. I mean he's willing to sell Uranium to people that are the right shade of brown.

[JensenBakura]

Not that I know anything, but I thought Julia Gillard seemed nice. I don't really know anything about Tony Abbot, other than based on what I've seen here he's the same species as ET, and feels comfortable in revealing swimwear.

So the whole "brown people" thing, is he actually racist, or is it more focused on a particular nationality? Like, I'm assuming black/asian UK citizens are as welcome to immigrate as white ones, but the people they are discouraging are from the third world?

[pano]

As long as they don't immigrate by boat they'll be fine. If there's one thing we hate more than brown people, it's boat people. #justelectionthings

Gillard was amazingly unpopular, but got more done in a hung Parliament than Howard got done in his massive majority Parliament. She was the best Prime Minister we've had in ages but people hated her because she sounds funny and looks not amazing. Oh yeah, and she has a vagina. How dare she?

[badfo]

I love that they are called boat people.

[JensenBakura]

As long as they don't immigrate by boat they'll be fine. If there's one thing we hate more than brown people, it's boat people. #justelectionthings

Gillard was amazingly unpopular, but got more done in a hung Parliament than Howard got done in his massive majority Parliament. She was the best Prime Minister we've had in ages but people hated her because she sounds funny and looks not amazing. Oh yeah, and she has a vagina. How dare she?

Yeah she's hideous...